Psychobike banner

21 - 31 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
959 Posts
They don't hold pressure for long, , i have a 044 bosch on mine that i dont fit the check valve to and have no issues , when the ecu sees its cranking it gnds the relay and activates the pump, i think your chasing a symptom and not the problem

When its cranking is the tach moving ?or does it start to move when the pressure begins to rise ?

had a similar issue not long ago here a bike lost its cam pin (original un molested cam just lost its pin in use no idea how...)
but not knowing this searched everything else, and eventually the most noticable thing was the motor did not know it was turning over ,
no fuel pump and no tach movement ...
same symptoms used to happen to my old 02 turbo with a pc3, (which i know you have checked) but it used to interfere with the crank signal and crank for a long time before the tach would begin to move and the bike would fire , bypassing the crank intercept on the pc3 fixed that one

my suggestion would be check your crank and cam signals , senders and triggers ,dont rely on a fault code to indicate a problem , as it will only realy tell you if you have a open circuit , like unplugged connector or broken wire

Actually i just watched your vid and i'm even more sure its a signal problem
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
They don't hold pressure for long, , i have a 044 bosch on mine that i dont fit the check valve to and have no issues , when the ecu sees its cranking it gnds the relay and activates the pump, i think your chasing a symptom and not the problem

When its cranking is the tach moving ?or does it start to move when the pressure begins to rise ?

had a similar issue not long ago here a bike lost its cam pin (original un molested cam just lost its pin in use no idea how...)
but not knowing this searched everything else, and eventually the most noticable thing was the motor did not know it was turning over ,
no fuel pump and no tach movement ...
same symptoms used to happen to my old 02 turbo with a pc3, (which i know you have checked) but it used to interfere with the crank signal and crank for a long time before the tach would begin to move and the bike would fire , bypassing the crank intercept on the pc3 fixed that one

my suggestion would be check your crank and cam signals , senders and triggers ,dont rely on a fault code to indicate a problem , as it will only realy tell you if you have a open circuit , like unplugged connector or broken wire

Actually i just watched your vid and i'm even more sure its a signal problem
I'm going to check those sensor today. After learning how the ecm works it makes sense. I still wonder why the pump works when running but not when cranking, you'd think it was using the same sensor but maybe not. I don't know enough about the ecm.

same symptoms used to happen to my old 02 turbo with a pc3, (which i know you have checked) but it used to interfere with the crank signal and crank for a long time before the tach would begin to move and the bike would fire , bypassing the crank intercept on the pc3 fixed that one
I haven't ruled out the PCII interfering with the signal.

In fact, there's a very old thread here where someone is talking about issues with PCII and cpk BUT they won't elaborate what the problem is.


Has anyone checked their Crank Position Sensor?

Bob, what was the deal about what Micheal at dyno-jet told us about the PC2 having to have stronger current at the ignition sensor pick ups? Did you have that problem..I couldn`t see how that would be if it ran fine without and wouldn`t when plugged up.l.....
I am trying to check all of my sensors, and especially those that effect ignition (CKP, CMP)
This goes back to my stupid problem with the PC2 when connected. I will say more about it someday when its resolved.

Anyway, Has anyone checked the CKP or cam postion sensor (CMP)? The manual describes the procedure on pages 7-26 and 7-27. I was only able to confirm that the resistence is correct at the sensor after disconnecting the coupler. I can not detect a voltage from the CKP between the green wire + and white wire - as the manual describes when cranking the bike.
Do you need the special multi circuit tester from Suzuki? I have my dealer checking on this meter for Monday since it doesn't even show up in the price list. Can you say back order?
The illustration is wrong in the book. They show someone placing the tester probes into the ecm coupler on the right. The green and white wire go to the plug on the left. I traced the wires from the CKP on your left cover. They start as a blue / green wire, then couple on the left sie of the bike beneath the tank --Green switches to white and blue to green. Then they go into the left ecm coupler. I confirmed through continuity testing that the green and white wires end up at the left ecm coupler.
Sorry to get away from all of the productive chat in the general discussion area these days, but anyone who knows anything about this it would be greatly appreciated.
By the way the peak voltage when cranking the motor is supposed to be greater than 3 volts.

Suzuki's manual is excellent. everything you need. You can check every sensor and can even trick the ecm if your creative enough by placing a variable resistor in place of some of the sensors. (airbox temp, engine temp)
Bob
;667127 said:
Bob, don't bother buying the Suzuki test meter, it is simply a decent quality digital multimeter. Any of the test procedures in the manual that measure volts should work on any decent digital multimeter.

Now for the testing! Both the CMP and CKP sensors are the older style, "coil" sensor, which makes them quite easy to test. If the resistance between the two wires is good (within manual specs) and from either wire to ground is o/c (open circuit, infinite ohms) (WHEN the coil is unplugged!) the sensor is good.

The most common fault with this type of coil is a heat-caused failure, where the motor will run until hot, and then fail with error code until it cools down again. I have not seen this fault on a busa coil, but quite common on some cars ignition pickup coils.

Now, for testing the coils with the motor cranking, the otherwise excellent Suzuki manual forgets to tell you to turn the multimeter to AC VOLTS, as all coil pickups of this type produce an ac waveform when operating. If you have an auto-selecting meter it will turn to AC VOLTS by itself and give you the right reading, but if you have a normal meter you have to select DC VOLTS or AC VOLTS - depending what you want to measure.

Maybe that's why you weren't getting the right voltage when cranking?

The peak volts from this type of sensor when cranking depends largely on the cranking speed, fresh battery=faster cranking=higher ac volts from sensor. Allow for any reading +/- 30% from manual's specs should be ok. The main test was the resistance test above.

To get back to your PC2 problem, why do you think it is the sensor? Does the PC2 go between the crank sensor and the ECM?? I would like to know more.

For the other board members, I would like to apologise on behalf of myself and Bob, next time we will use more foul language and ZX-12 references, as there is no excuse for posting these dry technical subjects...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Sorry about the previously long post.

I was able to verify that the pinouts at the ecm for ckp are crank (-) are white #36 and green (+) #43.

According to the manual page 7-26 the peak volt during cranking should be +3V. I'll try both with and without PCII.

In the previous comments from another board the poster states the manual is incorrect in that the voltage should be measure AC, not DC because the sensor being a coil-type. I'll check in a bit when I can get some help here. I only have two hands and can't hold the meter and crank at the same time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,539 Posts
Did you say you took the pc completely out the loop and hooked all back stock but bike wouldn't crank still?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
They don't hold pressure for long, , i have a 044 bosch on mine that i dont fit the check valve to and have no issues , when the ecu sees its cranking it gnds the relay and activates the pump, i think your chasing a symptom and not the problem

When its cranking is the tach moving ?or does it start to move when the pressure begins to rise ?

had a similar issue not long ago here a bike lost its cam pin (original un molested cam just lost its pin in use no idea how...)
but not knowing this searched everything else, and eventually the most noticable thing was the motor did not know it was turning over ,
no fuel pump and no tach movement ...
same symptoms used to happen to my old 02 turbo with a pc3, (which i know you have checked) but it used to interfere with the crank signal and crank for a long time before the tach would begin to move and the bike would fire , bypassing the crank intercept on the pc3 fixed that one

my suggestion would be check your crank and cam signals , senders and triggers ,dont rely on a fault code to indicate a problem , as it will only realy tell you if you have a open circuit , like unplugged connector or broken wire

Actually i just watched your vid and i'm even more sure its a signal problem
Hey, thanks for the info.
The majority of people were saying it was mechanical but I was thinking electrical also (this was starting hard even before turbo install)

Anyway,

I was going to check the ckp voltages at the ecm but seeing a discrepancy on another board I figured I would check the ohms and saw it was incorrect.

I was taking the PCII out of the equation when I noticed that I hadn't disconnected the PCII completely in the past (see the two connectors in the pic, my bad :oops:). You made me think when you said I had already took the PCII out of the equation.

So after disconnecting the PCII entirely I had the correct ohm reading at the ecm.

I decided to key to turn try the starter button with PCII NOW disconnected.

Now the pressure builds EVERY time I hit the starter button. I can wait 1/2 second or when pressure drops. I've tried every possible scenario and the pressure now builds whenever I hit the button. I tried it about 20 times just to make sure.

Now that I'm going to get rid of the PCII as it's outdated anyway do you have any suggestions for a replacement?

Does anyone know what those connectors were for, I like knowing as much as I can about my bike. Thanks, hopefully this solves the issue.

connectors3.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,539 Posts
The pc 2 has timing and fuel, thats why i asked if you took it completely out the loop. Those are your timing plugs. The other issue is the timing map could be screwed up in there and have tons of timing taken out for startup and not need it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
The pc 2 has timing and fuel, thats why i asked if you took it completely out the loop. Those are your timing plugs. The other issue is the timing map could be screwed up in there and have tons of timing taken out for startup and not need it.
I didn't realize that I didn't disconnect the PC 2 entirely. I thought the major harness wire was the only connection. (I didn't install the PC 2 myself and didn't see the wires).

By entirely eliminating the PC2 the pressure now builds as soon as I hit the starter button. With the PC2 connected it would sometimes take a LONG time cranking.

I'm not sure how the PC2 works but with it connected the fuel pump would only come on occasionally while cranking. Without the PC2 the fuel pump turns on as soon as I hit the starter button.

Should I toss the PC2 or do you think that's not the problem?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
The pc 2 has timing and fuel, thats why i asked if you took it completely out the loop. Those are your timing plugs. The other issue is the timing map could be screwed up in there and have tons of timing taken out for startup and not need it.
I didn't realize that I hadn't disconnect the PC 2 entirely. That was my fault.

The pressure problem while cranking seems solved by eliminating the PC2.

Now the question is, should I toss the PC2 or do you think that's not the problem?

Again, the pressure snaps right up with starter button and no PC2. With the PC2 hooked up the fuel pump can sometimes take a long, long time engaging to the point where I'm going through batteries.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,539 Posts
does it crank right up now? if so you found your issue.

get a pc3 or do ecu editor
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I'll probably just get a pc3 since it's already mapped and I don't how to use ecu editor.

I was thinking about a secondary setup instead of spending money on a pc3 but don't have the time right now and don't want to tie up the bike any longer. Someday but probably not this season.

Thanks guys
 
21 - 31 of 31 Posts
Top