What is orifice on a solenoid

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What is orifice on a solenoid

This is a discussion about What is orifice on a solenoid within the Turbo Nitrous section, where you will Drag Racers sharing info on Turbo and Nitrous applications; What does the orifice mean on a solenoid

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    Default What is orifice on a solenoid

    What does the orifice mean on a solenoid
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    All you need to know is the bigger the better
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    Orifice size is normally the solenoid's horsepower output
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    The orifice is the hole under the seal. When the solenoid is closed, the seal is being pushed against the orifice by both a spring and by the pressure of the nitrous or fuel, thus keeping the fluid from passing through the hole. When the solenoid is activated, an electromagnet lifts the seal off of the orifice to create an opening that allows the nitrous or fuel to pass through. The orifice is generally the smallest passage in the solenoid, so its size determines the amount of nitrous or solenoid that can pass through. The size of the orifice can become the ultimate system restriction depending on jet size. If the cross-sectional area of the orifice is smaller than the cross-sectional area of all the jets, then bigger jets will no longer make any difference. The solenoid orifice has then effectively become the jet.

    And bigger is not necessarily better. It might flow more nitrous if you need it to do so. But the problem with them is that a progressive controller is effectively making the solenoid become the jet at any percentage below 100%. Most solenoids become very non-linear in their response below about 25-30%, so you really don't want to build a system that you are going to have to try and expect a standard solenoid to operate below this. Generally speaking, if you have a progressive system and you want the best control across the widest range, you should use a solenoid no bigger than what you actually need to make maximum power at 100%. If you need your system to work at low power levels through a progressive controller, the small solenoid works much better. If you put a huge solenoid on something and then want to control the nitrous delivery at very small power levels, then you have to try and force it to operate at a very low percentages where it just doesn't work consistently.

    There are other reasons why big solenoids don't like lower percentages and high frequencies, but that gets into some electromagnetic/electromotive theory. I don't think anyone really wants to go there.
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    Thanks for the info guys. I have one more question . What size do I need to flow anywhere from 85 to 150 shot
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr awsome View Post
    Thanks for the info guys. I have one more question . What size do I need to flow anywhere from 85 to 150 shot
    Rough estimate, .093 should get you in right neighbor and its not to large like a .125 or larger to give better lowevel control. There will be other factors but this should be close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr awsome View Post
    Thanks for the info guys. I have one more question . What size do I need to flow anywhere from 85 to 150 shot
    That is a wide range, and it really depends on how low a percentage of power you need to operate at. Looking at max power, even the small NOS Powershot solenoid with the .052" orifice is good up to around 100HP at the absolute max. No way will it flow 150HP. But if you have it jetted at 100HP and need to progressively control it to deliver a small amount of power in a low gear, like maybe 20HP, it will do an excellent job at this. At least until it beats the rubber seal (if that is still how they are made) out of itself from the pulsing.

    Moving up to the next common size, which is .063" and you can get close to the 150HP mark, but that is at or probably really above what you can expect from a .063". Of course, not all solenoids of a given size are the same. For instance, an annular discharge style solenoid like the NX Lightning will flow maybe 5-10% more nitrous than the standard side exit NX .063" solenoid. That may be just enough additional flow to get where you need. Then again, maybe it won't.

    The .093" orifice will flow anything you will ever need for a motorcycle, well over 200HP with no problem. But if you have 150HP jetting, then need to spray at 20HP as before, the .093" just isn't going to do a very good job of it, at least not compared to a smaller orifice. It will spray that low, but it becomes very non-linear and inconsistent that low.

    So the short summary here is that, just like almost everything else in racing, there is no one magic size or part that does it all. If you want good low-power control, you need a small orifice. If you need a lot of flow, you need a big orifice. If you want decent low-end control and mediocre power capability, the .063" is a decent tradeoff. If you want mediocre low-end control and good power capability, then the .093" is a good compromise. I have always thought that big-spray nitrous bikes really needed a specific solenoid made with an orifice around .070-.075" and a correctly sized field coil to match. That would be about the best compromise size to keep adequate low-power control and be able to push close to 200HP.

    PS: There is one solenoid we have tested that comes the closest to doing everything well, and that is the Wizards of Nitrous stuff. But they are expensive, and much of their stuff uses hard-to-find metric connectors. But they do come the closest to backing up all of the outlandish claims every solenoid manufacturer throws around.
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    Ok I made my choice of going with the nx lightning solenoid with the .063 orifice. next question is where frequency do I need to set my controller to operate this solenoid smoothly . And what does the frequency control
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr awsome View Post
    Ok I made my choice of going with the nx lightning solenoid with the .063 orifice. next question is where frequency do I need to set my controller to operate this solenoid smoothly . And what does the frequency control
    I don't have a good answer specifically about that solenoid. What I can tell you is this: The lower the frequency, the lower the percentage you can dependably operate the solenoid. The reason for this largely goes back to all that electromotive stuff. But, lower frequencies also deliver less smooth power. Once again, it is about tradeoffs. If you need a low frequency to get good control, you can use longer nitrous lines between the solenoid and the nozzles. The longer lines serve to dampen and smooth the pulses, thus providing a smoother flow to the engine. Of course, longer lines also slow response time as well. Once, again, another tradeoff you must consider.

    As for where to start, if I were you, I would start at about 15Hz with that solenoid. I don't have much confidence that it can handle a lot more than that until I proved for myself that it could. The best way to test how the solenoid is responding is with a dyno, but that is probably not a good option for you. You can track test it by setting the progressive fixed (meaning no ramp up) to the lowest percentage you need the system to operate. Then, go make back-to-back runs starting at a low frequency and increasing it as you go. When the bike starts to fall off on power or act erratic, you have gone too high on the frequency.
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    Name:  nitrous_solenoid_parts.jpg
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    Parts from a standard solenoid. The orifice is the slightly raised hole in the dead center of the base (part on the lower left). The white part of the plunger (lower right) is the teflon seal. This is pushed against the orifice by both the spring and the nitrous pressure to keep nitrous from flowing through the hole. When opened, an electromagnet creates a magnetic field which uses magnetic force to pull the plunger off of the orifice and expose the hole, thus letting nitrous flow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyinphill View Post
    I don't have a good answer specifically about that solenoid. What I can tell you is this: The lower the frequency, the lower the percentage you can dependably operate the solenoid. The reason for this largely goes back to all that electromotive stuff. But, lower frequencies also deliver less smooth power. Once again, it is about tradeoffs. If you need a low frequency to get good control, you can use longer nitrous lines between the solenoid and the nozzles. The longer lines serve to dampen and smooth the pulses, thus providing a smoother flow to the engine. Of course, longer lines also slow response time as well. Once, again, another tradeoff you must consider.

    As for where to start, if I were you, I would start at about 15Hz with that solenoid. I don't have much confidence that it can handle a lot more than that until I proved for myself that it could. The best way to test how the solenoid is responding is with a dyno, but that is probably not a good option for you. You can track test it by setting the progressive fixed (meaning no ramp up) to the lowest percentage you need the system to operate. Then, go make back-to-back runs starting at a low frequency and increasing it as you go. When the bike starts to fall off on power or act erratic, you have gone too high on the frequency.
    Same question of the <150hp shot with the small WON pulsoid, 150hp being the abosulte max expected horsepower, what frequency would you set your controller at with it? I know we are just speaking generally here so I understand no absolute number can be given without testing, but if you'd generally use 15hz on a nx lighning, what would you use on the pulsoid with everything else in a simple dryshot system being the same in this case (simple solenoid swap between nx lightning & WON pulsoid).

    I've been told to operate my pulsoid at a higher frequency than conventional solenoids & always wondered why is that? What would the higher frequency effectively do & what are the effects of lower vs higher on same bike with same WON pulsoid.

    07 gsxr1000, simple dry nitrous setup...bottle----line----solenoid----MPS Spyder, being controlled by Daytona NC2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike Turner View Post
    Same question of the <150hp shot with the small WON pulsoid, 150hp being the abosulte max expected horsepower, what frequency would you set your controller at with it? I know we are just speaking generally here so I understand no absolute number can be given without testing, but if you'd generally use 15hz on a nx lighning, what would you use on the pulsoid with everything else in a simple dryshot system being the same in this case (simple solenoid swap between nx lightning & WON pulsoid).

    I've been told to operate my pulsoid at a higher frequency than conventional solenoids & always wondered why is that? What would the higher frequency effectively do & what are the effects of lower vs higher on same bike with same WON pulsoid.

    07 gsxr1000, simple dry nitrous setup...bottle----line----solenoid----MPS Spyder, being controlled by Daytona NC2

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    We have run the Pulsoids at 25Hz with good response down to 10%, a number that I have never seen from any other solenoid. I have heard claims that they can be run even higher, as much as 35Hz from the talk. But I can't confirm that myself, most controllers won't even go that high.

    I can tell you this much, when you are fogging the airbox, lower frequency use is not as much of a problem. The airbox volume tends to smooth out the pulsing delivery of the nitrous, resulting in a smoother delivery.

    When you are fogging directly into the port, it matters more. Just consider an engine at 12,000RPM, it is creating an intake cycle 100 times a second. So if you are pulsing a solenoid at 15 times a second, that means the intake tract is creating 6 cycles for every pulse of the solenoid. If there is a big pulsation at the jet, you could have a significant difference in the amount of nitrous into the engine between when the pulse is high and when it is low. Higher frequencies smooth out this effect, if the solenoid can handle it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyinphill View Post
    We have run the Pulsoids at 25Hz with good response down to 10%, a number that I have never seen from any other solenoid. I have heard claims that they can be run even higher, as much as 35Hz from the talk. But I can't confirm that myself, most controllers won't even go that high.

    I can tell you this much, when you are fogging the airbox, lower frequency use is not as much of a problem. The airbox volume tends to smooth out the pulsing delivery of the nitrous, resulting in a smoother delivery.

    When you are fogging directly into the port, it matters more. Just consider an engine at 12,000RPM, it is creating an intake cycle 100 times a second. So if you are pulsing a solenoid at 15 times a second, that means the intake tract is creating 6 cycles for every pulse of the solenoid. If there is a big pulsation at the jet, you could have a significant difference in the amount of nitrous into the engine between when the pulse is high and when it is low. Higher frequencies smooth out this effect, if the solenoid can handle it.
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    If the Wizards of NOS solenoids are used, be sure to adjust the seat to just above the max flow of the jetting in your system. This (allegedly) improves the resolution of the solenoid by limiting the distance that the plunger needs to travel to complete 1 cycle, and uncovers a bit less volume above the orifice.

    The "less uncovering" portion makes the solenoid more like one with a slightly smaller orifice. The less travel makes higher frequency use a bit more suitable.

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    Phil, are you guys dealers for the pulseoids? I have not tried recently, but in the past, the trouble required to try to get them outweighed the possiblity that they may operate better for our application.

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