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New all-motor AM/X class at MIRock-Prelim Rules

This is a discussion about New all-motor AM/X class at MIRock-Prelim Rules within the MIROCK Series section, where you will MiRock Series Racers Pit Here!!!; Not to allow billet cranks is a joke, its for strength, and reliabilty so you don't break as often and oil down the track and crash....Keep it as simple as you can or your gonna

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    Not to allow billet cranks is a joke, its for strength, and reliabilty so you don't break as often and oil down the track and crash....Keep it as simple as you can or your gonna have a thread a mile long about allowing this or that.. Also is the man power there to police all these rules?..Is it really that serious that people would cheat using ti-rods with steel caps as stated!!??? I don't think so!!..We all know the power is in the head/cam combo..So to prevent someone from having a Nascar guy doing a $12,000 head.. Make it so any entrys cylinder head could be purchaced for say $3,500 at the end of the race, so that can just buy another one. That would keep the price down since this is part of what this class is all about....Maybe break it up into 2 classes since there are heavier riders and lighter riders.. I think they should take a poll of who is really serious about racing the class and get the weights of the riders so it would help making the rules. I would not allow standalones.. I know i said the class wouldn't make it, but since its going to happen i'll give my input...Thats just some of it.. I like Rich's rules so far!
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    Good post but add cost of a block to $1600 cylinder block vs $450 bore and replate. Gen2 will need a gen 1 block above 84 mm or if by chance a gen 1 blows up and to get back racing asap has to buy new oem..

    Quote Originally Posted by CompetitionCNC View Post
    A power commander and an Lm-2 is about $700 Whats a motec cost?

    Billet cranks can be made lighter as are TI rods. They allow the engine to spin up quicker and accelerate the bike faster down the track.

    Theres no reason why these engines, with weld-up cranks and steel rods, cant run all season without a teardown.

    A bore scope can easily go in threw the clutch cover and look at all the rod beams and at the crank and pistons.

    If the rules on the head, valves, cams etc are open then theres no need to even pull the cam cover on the engine for tech.

    There could be a limit to the boring of the oem throttle bodies to 46 mm. This way the gen 1 busas cant be bored and the zx14 and gen 2 busas can be bored 2 mm to 46 mm.......

    $3000+ motec vs $700 powercommander and LM-2
    $3000+ billet crank vs weldup $1100
    $1600 cylinder block vs $450 bore and replate
    $3500 carbs or EFI vs $700 bored oem
    $2000 TI rods VS $600 - $1000
    $4000 Carbon wheels vs oem

    I'm good whatever the rules end up being. And I'll adjust to them so its not a big deal for me but im just thinking of the bulk of the racers out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard gadson View Post
    you say that because of YOUR budget. but to a man who wants to race a pro class and knows how expensive that can be, it is a cheaper class. you are not seeing the significant costs cut from either a ALL OUT all motor bike, or other pro classes such as pro street or pro mod. it just depends on what u feel is the definition of "budget". but no, its not street et type cheap
    I never said it didn't fit my budget,what I said was I don't like to hear the word budget when it's anything but that,
    And thank you Richard for clarifying that this is not a Street ET Class had:) you not done that I may have been lost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CompetitionCNC View Post
    A power commander and an Lm-2 is about $700 Whats a motec cost?
    You are thinking small picture here. A PC and LM2 are not enough electronics for this class. You will have to have some amount of work done in the ECU to raise the Rev limit, unitize the timing, etc. This is going to cost at least $300 from any good shop that I know about. So now you are up to $1000. Then, if you are at the race track and find you need a different setup in your ECU, you either have to deal with it until you can send it back and pay to have it hacked again, or you invest the time and money to learn how to do it yourself at the race track. And even then what kind of trickery that can be done depends on what model bike you have. Gen 2 and other late-models can have lots of tricks performed in their ECUs. Anyone running an older model bike is at a distinct disadvantage if they have to run stock ECU to stock ECU.

    Then you still need a way to set up a 2-step, a way to activate a shift light, and a way to kill the ignition. I think most people will end up just buying a SB6, it is the cheapest and most flexible way to do all of this. It is also about $600. So now you are up to $1600 in electronics, which is well within the range of several good-quality entry-level units from Holley, DTA, Haltech, Wolf, Autronic, and others.

    Of course, if you don't have a Busa or GSXR1000, the SB6 is not an option. If you have anything else, you are now going to have to look at an MC4, something which many of the Busa/1000 will also probably do as well due to its increased capability. But an MC4 also requires different coils and a crank trigger. All of this is going to be at least $500 more than the SB6 option, so now you are at $2100. And then you have to mount the crank trigger, which is at least another $300 for a Busa. If you don't have a Busa, then you are looking at having to custom-manufacture some way to mount a Dyna crank trigger to get the MC4 to work on a non-Busa. How much is that going to cost? whatever it is, you will end up in the $2500+ range for all of it. A Motec M84 is $2700 fully loaded.

    But even that is not enough, because anyone that has ever done any serious racing like this knows that you need good data logging information to be competitive. The LM2 isn't gonna cut it here. For starters, the sample rate is only 12 Hz, this is nowhere near fast enough for drag racing. You need an absolute minimum of 25-50Hz, and really need 100Hz to see all of the important things happening in drag racing. The LM2 is intended to be a hand-held tuning device for people tweaking on their street cars, it is not intended to be a competition data acquisition device. I think a WEGO is probably a better choice here, but it has even less logging capabilities. So data logging of the caliber needed here can't be bought for much less than about $1000. Now your SB6 bike is up to $2600, and your MC4 bike is over $3500. A complete Motec M84 plug-n-play kit is $3500. And you still can't data log any of the internal ECU functions, something which even the $1500 aftermarket ECU can do. If you want to log this with a stock ECU, you have to buy yet another box.

    Now tell me again how an aftermarket ECU is more expensive?


    Billet cranks can be made lighter as are TI rods. They allow the engine to spin up quicker and accelerate the bike faster down the track.
    That is true. But it is also true that stock cranks can be lightened and knife-edged just like a billet crank. How much does that add to the cost? I bet it ends up being not much less than a billet, and far less reliable. And if the class is designed with the idea that big riders need big cranks to compete, bigger than can be done with a weld-up, then this is all a moot discussion. If the class rules are based on big riders needing 9mm+ cranks, then billets must be allowed.




    Theres no reason why these engines, with weld-up cranks and steel rods, cant run all season without a teardown.
    True, but this only applies if the big rider can't use a big crank.




    A bore scope can easily go in threw the clutch cover and look at all the rod beams and at the crank and pistons.
    What is looking at the rod beams going to tell you? Rods can be made to any shape and dimension, looking at the shape isn't going to tell you anything. Even if you required a spec rod, such as a Crower or Carillo, someone can make Ti rods to exactly the same dimensions as a steel rod, then there will be no way to tell by looking at the shape. There is a color difference between Ti and steel, but I don't know if a boroscope has good enough lighting to tell this. And if the rods are identical in shape and coated, your boroscope plan is out the window.

    Then there are the wrist pins. A boroscope is useless for that one, you can't really see them with the pistons in the block. I agree with the no Ti rod rule, but there is no way to enforce this without teardowns.




    If the rules on the head, valves, cams etc are open then theres no need to even pull the cam cover on the engine for tech.
    This is true. But if the engine has to be torn down anyway to look at other things, it makes no difference.




    There could be a limit to the boring of the oem throttle bodies to 46 mm. This way the gen 1 busas cant be bored and the zx14 and gen 2 busas can be bored 2 mm to 46 mm.......
    Also true. But you are adding another rule to a class that is supposed to have limited rules. A limit on boring the throttle bodies is something I have no problem with, but what about those who already have bigger TB's? Or those that have/prefer carbs? Right off the bat you are telling a large segment of the guys with existing bikes that they can't come race without significant, expensive changes. I am not saying I disagree with the no carb/46mm limit approach in the long run, but in the short run it is going to hurt participation.



    $3000+ motec vs $700 powercommander and LM-2
    As shown above, a totally inaccurate comparison.


    $3000+ billet crank vs weldup $1100
    Factor in the total costs for every trick to a weld-up including the initial cost of the OEM crank, show me that the big racer doesn't need a big crank, then get back to me with an updated number.


    $1600 cylinder block vs $450 bore and replate
    Except you are not including the cost of a used OEM block, if you can find one used.


    $3500 carbs or EFI vs $700 bored oem
    Absolutely true, but you must ban carbs and everyone that uses them for this to work.


    $2000 TI rods VS $600 - $1000
    Absolutely true, but there is no way around a teardown to check for them.


    $4000 Carbon wheels vs oem
    Also true, but so many racers already have them, and I don't know how well factory rubber cush drives will work in this class. Just say no carbon wheels, and you have dropped the cost into the low-$2k range.



    I'm good whatever the rules end up being. And I'll adjust to them so its not a big deal for me but im just thinking of the bulk of the racers out there.
    I am glad to hear that. But no matter what the rules, a big group of racers are going to complain and claim the rules are the reason they are not coming to race. That is just the way it is, and everyone that is serious about racing this class had better be prepared for that.
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    The one thing that i notice about the whole long thread is that Phil is right about everything!
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    I think I am going to relinquish my throne given to me by Ricky Wood and claim Phil Davis as the one person who like to "discuss" things more than I do.

    First arguing that Billet cranks and blocks should not be allowed, then arguing against Jim for stating the same thing.

    John
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    No set of rules will be perfect the first year out and there is no way to please everyone. People are tying to make rules so they can win. Not only win but win with their current setup. That's not how it works. You have to use whatever the rules may be to your advantage and do the best you can to win. I'm 290 suited and my bike weighs about 490lbs. So I know that I'll have to spend a lot of money to lighten the bike up and add as much horsepower as the rules allow. Even then I may not be front runner but everybody can't lead the pack.

    I say whomever is in charge of finalizing the rules read through this thread and just decide on a set of rules. Some people won't like it and some people may decide not to participate but that's racing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportbikeryder View Post
    I think I am going to relinquish my throne given to me by Ricky Wood and claim Phil Davis as the one person who like to "discuss" things more than I do.

    First arguing that Billet cranks and blocks should not be allowed, then arguing against Jim for stating the same thing.

    John
    and he says some very high dollar parts should be allowed b/c ppl already have them but hes dead set against other parts that im sure ppl already have to

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    Quote Originally Posted by knecum View Post
    Not to allow billet cranks is a joke, its for strength, and reliabilty so you don't break as often and oil down the track and crash....Keep it as simple as you can or your gonna have a thread a mile long about allowing this or that.. Also is the man power there to police all these rules?..Is it really that serious that people would cheat using ti-rods with steel caps as stated!!??? I don't think so!!..We all know the power is in the head/cam combo..So to prevent someone from having a Nascar guy doing a $12,000 head.. Make it so any entrys cylinder head could be purchaced for say $3,500 at the end of the race, so that can just buy another one. That would keep the price down since this is part of what this class is all about....Maybe break it up into 2 classes since there are heavier riders and lighter riders.. I think they should take a poll of who is really serious about racing the class and get the weights of the riders so it would help making the rules. I would not allow standalones.. I know i said the class wouldn't make it, but since its going to happen i'll give my input...Thats just some of it.. I like Rich's rules so far!


    Steve, most of these small to average size guy dont want to allow billet cranks because they want to keep the advantage. PERIOD!!!! Be honest.....How the fuk is a 620/640lb package gonna run with a 570/600lb package without a billet crank. It cant and EVERYBODY knows it!!.......GTFOH. Some of yall lil MF'ers scared that a big man sit'n on that 11 mil gonna F**K yall up! If not why you cry'n about billet cranks! I bet not one man 230+ lbs suited is saying no billet cranks,its you lil MFer's!!!!!
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    Phill what do you think about aluminum rods versus titanium rods? They cost less and just as lite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportbikeryder View Post
    I think I am going to relinquish my throne given to me by Ricky Wood and claim Phil Davis as the one person who like to "discuss" things more than I do.

    First arguing that Billet cranks and blocks should not be allowed, then arguing against Jim for stating the same thing.

    John
    Show me any place in my last post where I stated billet cranks & blocks should or should not be allowed. I made no statement either way. I pointed out that, if you are going to consider the costs of anything, whether it is blocks, cranks, ECUs. or anything else, you have to take into account the FULL cost of the items you are comparing. You can't just cherry-pick part of what one item cost, then try to compare that to the full price of what another one costs. And longevity of the part is also a cost, you can't look at just the initial price, you have to also look at the replacement rate as well. Educated decisions about rules can only be made if the full set of facts are being considered. The prices he quoted do not take into consideration the full facts about the real costs of most of the items in question.

    I also pointed out that just declaring something to be illegal has other ramifications in both unconsidered costs as well as alienating racers and builders. Using the cranks as an example, you can't write a set of rules where you are expecting a big rider to need to build a 1600+cc engine to compete, then tell him the components he needs to build 1600+cc are illegal. My point is that you have three choices:

    1) You design rules that don't need 1600+cc engines, thus making a ban on billet cranks more justifiable. This means smaller engines for everyone.

    2) You design rules that require 1600+cc engines, and you allow billet cranks so that the big riders can build big engines.

    3) You design rules that require 1600+cc engines, make the compenents required to build them illegal, and effectively tell the big guys to stay home and don't bother.

    Any of these 3 choices have Pros and Cons. Someone is going to be mad no matter which one you choose. You can only make the best choice if you consider all of the facts, not just the ones that seem to justify your personal position.

    And if it seems as if I am riding on both sides of the fence, well I am. That is my responsibility in this position. I have to look at everything, from every direction, every racers position, and every angle of both the short-term and long-term implications. I will sometimes argue what seems to be contradicting positions when I am pointing out to someone that their thoughts on something are biased or are based on an inaccurate or incomplete set of facts. It doesn't mean that I agree or disagree with their final opinion, it just means that I disagree with the thoughts and ideas that took them down an incorrect path to reach that decision. If the path they took is incorrect, it really doesn't matter where they ended up, because they learned nothing by the exercise.

    A correct answer based on incorrect information is not really a correct choice. It is a lucky guess.

    I make it a point in my life to try and make correct choices, not lucky guesses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profile View Post
    Phill what do you think about aluminum rods versus titanium rods? They cost less and just as lite.
    That is true. But how long would they last? In car engines they don't last quite as long, but the lower cost offsets that.

    And do all engines have room for them? They are significantly bigger, and require more clearance in the cases to use them. Can all engines likely to be used in this class use them equally effectively? I can't answer that question right now, and I wouldn't attempt an opinion until I have all of the relevant information on the subject.
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    Just because you have a billet crank doesn't mean your stroked to 11 mil..I have billet stock stroke cranks.. If your allowed a stroker no matter what size you should be allowed billet.. What if the racer wants one to save $ in the long run.. its only $1500 more then a weld up.. $1500 is not going to make or break the class trust me.. The oiling system is way better in a billet.. So say your bottom end lasts all season, but the guy with a weld-up went through 2 cranks..Your at the same amount. Just rule out Ti-rods.. I'm telling you make the head to have a $3500 cap for instance.. then make it so someone can purchase it.. What is wrong with that idea? That right there saves the racer money and does'nt let someone that knows someone in the industry Nascar, pro-stock get an expensive head and have an advantage.. The whole idea is to make it affordable and as fair as possible..
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    Quote Originally Posted by knecum View Post
    Just because you have a billet crank doesn't mean your stroked to 11 mil..I have billet stock stroke cranks.. If your allowed a stroker no matter what size you should be allowed billet.. What if the racer wants one to save $ in the long run.. its only $1500 more then a weld up.. $1500 is not going to make or break the class trust me.. The oiling system is way better in a billet.. So say your bottom end lasts all season, but the guy with a weld-up went through 2 cranks..Your at the same amount. Just rule out Ti-rods.. I'm telling you make the head to have a $3500 cap for instance.. then make it so someone can purchase it.. What is wrong with that idea? That right there saves the racer money and does'nt let someone that knows someone in the industry Nascar, pro-stock get an expensive head and have an advantage.. The whole idea is to make it affordable and as fair as possible..


    WHO SAID THAT! I NEVER SAID THAT ANYWHERE IN MY POST. I KNOW YOU CAN HAVE A BILLET STOCK STROKE CRANK!!! I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT,BUT SOMETIMES YOU COME OFF LIKE YOUR THE ONLY ONE THAT KNOWS SHIT!!!! THE POINT I WAS MAKING IS THAT SOME DON'T SEEM TO WANT TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD FOR BIG GUYS! THERE ISSUE ISN'T SO MUCH THAT THE CRANKS ARE BILLET. IT'S THE SIZE THAT A HEAVY PACKAGE WILL BE ALLOWED TO USE......... ALL MOTOR EXTREME AND CHEAP ANIT GONNA MIX! SO IF SOME OF YOU ARE LOOK'N FOR A CHEAP CLASS TO RUN THIS ANIT IT,NO MATTER HOW YOU TRY TO FLIP IT! TRY STREET ET!

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    aftermarket blocks only help the busa guys. nobody else. makem run stock cyl. everybody else will have to. and billet cranks are only offered for the suzukis so that is byas to them also. same with no standalones. wont hurt the suzuki guys. they can do almost anything in the stock ecu with a 250 buck cord and free software. this will be a suzuki class. 1000s and busas galore if the rules arent set to make an even playing field. even up rules to keep the bikes close in availability in parts so the 14 and 10 guys can play too.

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