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New all-motor AM/X class at MIRock-Prelim Rules

This is a discussion about New all-motor AM/X class at MIRock-Prelim Rules within the MIROCK Series section, where you will MiRock Series Racers Pit Here!!!; Originally Posted by show2ime He wins because he leaves first. He wad a bike gone most of the time and they arent 20 lbs apart. He doesn't only win because he always leaves first. I

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    Quote Originally Posted by show2ime View Post
    He wins because he leaves first. He wad a bike gone most of the time and they arent 20 lbs apart.
    He doesn't only win because he always leaves first. I have seen on plenty occasions that jr. goes faster and quicker than sr. It's in the tune up.
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    Well what are we for sure on about rules as in frame lightning and seat position i got to get that stuff to powder coater lol.are we sure on ground clearance at 3in
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcrecovery View Post
    Well what are we for sure on about rules as in frame lightning and seat position i got to get that stuff to powder coater lol.are we sure on ground clearance at 3in
    At MIR ground clearance will be 3" like every other class you can bet on that.
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    I think the #1 priority should be keeping cost down to have a large class participation.
    Like someone else said, if the rules allow something and it makes the bike faster then everyone will have to have it.

    Bore and stroke can be checked threw the spark plug hole. The tech guys have a tool at Bonneville to check bore threw the plug hole and stroke is very easy to check.

    The components that will drive up costs and reduce participation in the class are pretty obvious and should not be allowed.
    Here's my list of "not allowed due to cost" items.....

    TI rods
    Billet cranks
    Billet cylinders or any aftermarket cylinders
    Aftermarket ECU's
    Aftermarket carbs or throttle bodies
    Auto Trannys

    Allowing all those items doubles the cost of the engine for the class.
    Maybe aftermarket wheels should be on that list as well?

    Limiting the zx14 to 87 bore and 66 stroke 1570 cc, and Busas to 85 bore and 69 stroke 1566 cc and a min weight is just so much simpler.
    The liter bikes would have a bore stroke and weight limit as well.
    The min weight is where class parody can really be adjusted well. And rules for the ballasts location is common in racing.

    As for limiting the valve sizes, valve materials, cam lift rules, max compression ratios, wrist pin size, wrist pin material, valve spring material, retainer material, header design, tube diameters, etc, etc, etc,,,, I think that's UN-enforceable without tear-downs and tear-down inspections can and should be avoided if at all possible. They cost money and huge amounts of time to the track and racers.

    As for spec fuel like mrx-02, and the tech inspectors sealing the tanks with tamper proof tape? That should really be considered.

    I think this class will be huge and really take off IF the cost is kept down.
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    Jim,
    Steve Knecum mentioned the bore measurement tools from Bonneville as well. Do you know if they were custom made or if they are a commercial item?

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    I found one.

    Barry Dicely makes them. This one is 70mm max bore, but I am sure it can be made larger, if the stroke is larger.

    New all-motor AM/X class at MIRock-Prelim Rules-80-700-3.jpg

    New all-motor AM/X class at MIRock-Prelim Rules-80-700.jpg

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    Can a p&g gauge not check displacement this small?

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    Quote Originally Posted by money maker View Post
    Can a p&g gauge not check displacement this small?

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    Probably could be made to work, but you'd still have to remove the cams to use it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sportbikeryder View Post
    Probably could be made to work, but you'd still have to remove the cams to use it.
    true, thats no good

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    If u can ck bore easily why not allow billet blocks. No perf gains and they are heavier than cast. Its an option that should b allowed...tbs, lightweight wheels, ti rods, autos, they all supposedly give u a perf gain so i could see banning those...the thing is companies that sell standalones want them in. Companies that sell heads want huge ti valve no size limit exotic heads in. Everyone wants their own piece in so thats why the rules sshould be made fairly with the racer in mind..
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    Quote Originally Posted by show2ime View Post
    If u can ck bore easily why not allow billet blocks. No perf gains and they are heavier than cast. Its an option that should b allowed...tbs, lightweight wheels, ti rods, autos, they all supposedly give u a perf gain so i could see banning those...
    yea theres no reason not to allow billet blocks and cranks since there going to have to check it anyway to come up with displacement

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    Quote Originally Posted by CompetitionCNC View Post
    I think the #1 priority should be keeping cost down to have a large class participation.
    Like someone else said, if the rules allow something and it makes the bike faster then everyone will have to have it.
    I agree with this completely


    Bore and stroke can be checked threw the spark plug hole. The tech guys have a tool at Bonneville to check bore threw the plug hole and stroke is very easy to check.
    I agree with this as well. Everybody has a false sense of how difficult it is to check displacement. It is not that difficult, and it won't actually be performed that often. The NHRA doesn't check everybody at every event, much less every round.


    The components that will drive up costs and reduce participation in the class are pretty obvious and should not be allowed.
    Here's my list of "not allowed due to cost" items.....

    TI rods
    I agree


    Billet cranks
    I agree, but if you have rules allowing 9mm and bigger strokes, you have no choice but to allow them. If you have the engines sized where most people don't even need a stroker, then you have eliminated, or at least greatly mitigated the problem.


    Billet cylinders or any aftermarket cylinders
    I agree


    Aftermarket ECU's
    I completely disagree with this one. I asked Richard how much the electronics cost to build the bike he is going to race using a stock ECU. He told me about $1600. For Comparison:

    Holley EFI & Harness $1200
    DTA S60 & Harness $1500
    Haltech Sport 1000 & harness $1723

    So where is the big cost difference? And the cost may be comparable, but the capabilities aren't even close. Especially in the data logging department. If Richard wants to have data logging even anywhere close to what you would get with these other units, he would have to add at least another grand to his price. Now he is in the Motec price range.

    And another thing you aren't considering is the advantage that the Gen 2 Busa and new GSXR 1000 have in the ECU editing department. Every other bike on the market is at a huge disadvantage if you require everyone to use stock ECU's because the others simply can't match the capabilities of the new Suzukis.


    Aftermarket carbs or throttle bodies
    I agree with the price aspect, but there are other things you are not considering. Some racers and builders prefer carbs, especially if you are forcing them to use stock ECUs.

    Plus, what if one particular model of bike can bore the throttle bodies out bigger than every other model, or if one model can't be bored out as much as the others. You have created an imbalance in the class that can't really be overcome.


    Auto Trannys
    I agree


    Allowing all those items doubles the cost of the engine for the class.
    I don't know that these few double the cost, but they certainly add significantly


    Maybe aftermarket wheels should be on that list as well?
    I agree with the cost aspect, but factory wheels with rubber cush drives don't make the best wheels when launching with a slick. And besides, we have many wheel companies which support our racing that would not be happy.



    Limiting the zx14 to 87 bore and 66 stroke 1570 cc, and Busas to 85 bore and 69 stroke 1566 cc and a min weight is just so much simpler.
    It is clearly simpler, but is it better? Simple is only good if it does the job as well as complicated. In this case, I don't believe simple accomplishes what needs to be accomplished in this class.


    The liter bikes would have a bore stroke and weight limit as well.
    The min weight is where class parody can really be adjusted well.
    If you have everyone at one size, you have taken away all ability to use weight for parody. Yet another reason why "one-size-fits-all" is usually not effective in drag racing.


    And rules for the ballasts location is common in racing.
    It certainly is, but now you are adding yet another rule to a rule book that was supposed to be simple.


    As for limiting the valve sizes, valve materials, cam lift rules, max compression ratios, wrist pin size, wrist pin material, valve spring material, retainer material, header design, tube diameters, etc, etc, etc,,,, I think that's UN-enforceable without tear-downs and tear-down inspections can and should be avoided if at all possible.
    If you want limited rules and limited teardowns you drive up the cost. If you want to control costs, then you have to have rules. And the inspections that go with it. You can't have it both ways.

    As for some of the components you mentioned, a set of titanium valve springs is about $1900, for one set of springs that will only last maybe 20-30 passes. 4 Ti wrist pins is about $700. A set of Ti valves is $1200. Just those three items alone add about $3500 to each engine in the class. But they can all be easily controlled with little more than a magnet. You want to limit Ti rods, how do you propose to do that with disassembling engines?


    They cost money and huge amounts of time to the track and racers.
    As I said before, you can't have it both ways. Either a few people occasionally have to deal with reassembling an engine, or everyone has to build high-dollar engines. Take your pick.



    As for spec fuel like mrx-02, and the tech inspectors sealing the tanks with tamper proof tape? That should really be considered.
    It takes more than that to control fuel. There are many ways to get around what you suggest.


    I think this class will be huge and really take off IF the cost is kept down.
    We will see. This class will be one for the hard workers, the ones that take the time to do all of the little things and really stay on top of keeping everything in perfect setup and tune. I just don't know how many people actually understand what kind of work and attention to details it will take to run at the front of a class like this.
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    Titanium Rods could be checked through the oil pan on most bikes.

    I'm not sure how allowing aftermarket ECU's is being shown as a cost savings, but allowing billet blocks and cranks is somehow a cost adder. ECU's should definitely help performance while billet cranks and blocks will do very little to aid performance in a displacement limited class. Reliability improvement, perhaps, which could lower costs in the long term.
    A high end Bosch or similar ECU could be used that would cost more than most complete bikes. A 3000 crank could be used as well. Neither would be required to be used.

    If aftermarket ECU's are allowed, it just makes sense to allow aftermarket cranks and blocks. Max bore could still be specified if desired.

    If cost really is a driver, eliminating Carbon fiber wheels would be a good step. If explicit Carbon wheel elimination is not politically correct, then a minimum wheel weight may be a practical way to do it. That could pretty much make it an aluminum wheel only class for the most part.
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    You and the staff that's gonna have the real job(teching and keeping things competitive), should sit down do what's gonna be best for participation and fairness. The whiners will always whine,the racers will always get in where they fit in and try to win a race. Best Of Luck and folks start working on getting your wallets right, this not gonna be a kmart hoppy horse cost kinda ride..

    Quote Originally Posted by MIRock Technical Staff View Post
    I agree with this completely



    I agree with this as well. Everybody has a false sense of how difficult it is to check displacement. It is not that difficult, and it won't actually be performed that often. The NHRA doesn't check everybody at every event, much less every round.



    I agree



    I agree, but if you have rules allowing 9mm and bigger strokes, you have no choice but to allow them. If you have the engines sized where most people don't even need a stroker, then you have eliminated, or at least greatly mitigated the problem.



    I agree



    I completely disagree with this one. I asked Richard how much the electronics cost to build the bike he is going to race using a stock ECU. He told me about $1600. For Comparison:

    Holley EFI & Harness $1200
    DTA S60 & Harness $1500
    Haltech Sport 1000 & harness $1723

    So where is the big cost difference? And the cost may be comparable, but the capabilities aren't even close. Especially in the data logging department. If Richard wants to have data logging even anywhere close to what you would get with these other units, he would have to add at least another grand to his price. Now he is in the Motec price range.

    And another thing you aren't considering is the advantage that the Gen 2 Busa and new GSXR 1000 have in the ECU editing department. Every other bike on the market is at a huge disadvantage if you require everyone to use stock ECU's because the others simply can't match the capabilities of the new Suzukis.



    I agree with the price aspect, but there are other things you are not considering. Some racers and builders prefer carbs, especially if you are forcing them to use stock ECUs.

    Plus, what if one particular model of bike can bore the throttle bodies out bigger than every other model, or if one model can't be bored out as much as the others. You have created an imbalance in the class that can't really be overcome.



    I agree



    I don't know that these few double the cost, but they certainly add significantly



    I agree with the cost aspect, but factory wheels with rubber cush drives don't make the best wheels when launching with a slick. And besides, we have many wheel companies which support our racing that would not be happy.



    It is clearly simpler, but is it better? Simple is only good if it does the job as well as complicated. In this case, I don't believe simple accomplishes what needs to be accomplished in this class.



    If you have everyone at one size, you have taken away all ability to use weight for parody. Yet another reason why "one-size-fits-all" is usually not effective in drag racing.



    It certainly is, but now you are adding yet another rule to a rule book that was supposed to be simple.



    If you want limited rules and limited teardowns you drive up the cost. If you want to control costs, then you have to have rules. And the inspections that go with it. You can't have it both ways.

    As for some of the components you mentioned, a set of titanium valve springs is about $1900, for one set of springs that will only last maybe 20-30 passes. 4 Ti wrist pins is about $700. A set of Ti valves is $1200. Just those three items alone add about $3500 to each engine in the class. But they can all be easily controlled with little more than a magnet. You want to limit Ti rods, how do you propose to do that with disassembling engines?



    As I said before, you can't have it both ways. Either a few people occasionally have to deal with reassembling an engine, or everyone has to build high-dollar engines. Take your pick.



    It takes more than that to control fuel. There are many ways to get around what you suggest.



    We will see. This class will be one for the hard workers, the ones that take the time to do all of the little things and really stay on top of keeping everything in perfect setup and tune. I just don't know how many people actually understand what kind of work and attention to details it will take to run at the front of a class like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportbikeryder View Post
    Titanium Rods could be checked through the oil pan on most bikes.
    Not very well. You might can get to 2 or 3 of the caps, but you can't really get to all of them. And you can't get to the rods really on any of them. You don't think someone would run rods with steel caps and Ti beams if they thought they could get away with it, do you?


    I'm not sure how allowing aftermarket ECU's is being shown as a cost savings,
    I never suggested it was really a cost saver, I was just pointing out that the cost is really no different. Therefore banning them based on cost has no validity.


    but allowing billet blocks and cranks is somehow a cost adder. ECU's should definitely help performance while billet cranks and blocks will do very little to aid performance in a displacement limited class. Reliability improvement, perhaps, which could lower costs in the long term.
    More than the ECU itself, good data logging saves racers money in the long run. And I think the bigger point is that aftermarket ECUs put everyone on the same playing field, something that is certainly not true with stock ECUs. That is why we now have them in Real Street.


    A high end Bosch or similar ECU could be used that would cost more than most complete bikes. A 3000 crank could be used as well. Neither would be required to be used.
    Those ECUs are allowed in many other classes, including Pro Street, but we have never seen them become a problem. The reason: The Motec's and Marelli's do the job just fine, so why spend the money? The same thing would be even more true in this class, because the really advanced functions of the Motec/Marelli world are not really needed in a class like this. The sub-$2K units have pretty much all the capabilities that are needed in a non-turbo/non-nitrous class.

    This issue can also be controlled by a price cap on the ECUs.


    If aftermarket ECU's are allowed, it just makes sense to allow aftermarket cranks and blocks. Max bore could still be specified if desired.
    I don't see this. ECUs don't add any expense, cranks and blocks add significant expense. Especially cranks.

    And besides, when you are trying to limit costs, using the cost of one high-dollar item to justify the cost of another high-dollar item gets you nowhere. As someone already stated, there is no way to keep someone from buying a $6500 head from Carpenter. So by your logic, since $6500 cylinder heads are allowed, then $6500 Motec M880s should be allowed.


    If cost really is a driver, eliminating Carbon fiber wheels would be a good step. If explicit Carbon wheel elimination is not politically correct, then a minimum wheel weight may be a practical way to do it. That could pretty much make it an aluminum wheel only class for the most part.
    There is no problem explicitly banning carbon wheels. Just about every sanctioning body on the planet does it already.
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